Meno 11

Meno: That is so (E!sti tau=ta): but do you think there are no teachers of virtue (a0ll’ a0reth=j dida/skaloi ou0 dokou=si/ soi ei]nai;)?

Socrates: I must say I have often inquired (Polla/kij gou=n zhtw~n) whether there were any (ei1 tinej ei]en au0th=j dida/skaloi), but for all my pains I cannot find one (pa/nta poiw~n ou0 du/namai eu9rei=n). And yet many have shared the search with me, and particularly those persons whom I regard as best qualified for the task (kai/toi meta\ pollw~n ge zhtw~, kai\ tou/twn ma/lista, ou4j a2n oi1wmai e0mpeirota/touj ei]nai tou= pra/gmatoj). But look, Meno: here, at the very moment (Kai\ dh\ kai\ nu=n, w} Me/nwn) when he was wanted (ei0j kalo/n), we have Anytus sitting down beside us (h9mi=n A1nutoj o3de kaqe/zeto), to take his share in our quest (w{| metadw~men th=j zhth/sewj). And we may well ask his assistance (Ei0ko/twj d’ a2n metadoi=men): for our friend Anytus, in the first place, is the son of a wise and wealthy father Anthemion (A1nutoj ga\r o3de prw~ton me/n e0sti patro\j plousi/ou te kai\ sofou= A0nqemi/wnoj), who became rich not by a fluke or a gift (o4j e0ge/neto plou/sioj ou0k a0po\ tou= au0toma/tou ou0de\ do/ntoj tino/j) – like that man the other day, Ismenias the Theban, who has come into the fortune of a Polycrates (w#sper o9 nu=n ne/wsti ei0lhfw_j ta\ Polukra/tou xrh/mata I)smhni/aj o9 Qhbai=oj) – but as the product of his own skill and industry (a0lla\ th=| au9tou= sofi/a| kthsa/menoj kai\ e0pimelei/a|); and secondly (e1peita), he has the name of being in general a well-conducted, mannerly person, not insolent towards his fellow-citizens or arrogant and annoying (kai\ ta\ a1lla ou0x u9perh/fanoj dokw~n ei]nai poli/thj ou0de\ o0gkw&dhj te kai\ e0paxqh/j, a0lla\ ko/smioj te kai\ eu0stalh\j a0nh/r); and further (e1peita), he gave his son a good upbringing and education (tou=ton eu] e1qreyen kai\ e0pai/deusen), as the Athenian people think (w(j dokei= A0qhnai/wn tw~| plh/qei), for they choose him for the highest offices (ai9rou=ntai gou]n au0to\n e0pi\ ta\j megi/staj a0rxa/j). This is the sort of man to whom one may look for help in the inquiry as to whether there are teachers of virtue or not (di/kaion dh\ meta\ toiou/twn zhtei=n a0reth=j pe/ri didaska/louj, ei1t’ ei0si\n ei1te mh/), and who they may be (kai\ oi[tinej). So please Anytus, join with me and your family-friend Meno in our inquiry about this matter (su\ ou]n h9mi=n, w} A1nute, suzh/thson, e0moi/ te kai\ tw~| sautou= ce/nw| Me/nwni tw~|de, peri\ tou/tou tou= pra/gmatoj) – who can be the teachers (ti/nej a2n ei]en dida/skaloi). Consider it thus (w{de de\ ske/yai): if we wanted Meno here to be a good doctor (ei0 bouloi/meqa Me/nwna to/nde a0gaqo\n i0atro\n gene/sqai), to whom should we send him for instruction (para\ ti/naj a2n au0to\n pe/mpoimen didaska/louj)? Would it not be to the doctors (a]r’ ou0 para\ tou\j i0atrou/j;)?

Anytus: Certainly (Pa/nu ge).

Socrates: And if we wanted him to be a good cobbler, should we not send him to cobblers?

Anytus: Yes (Nai/).

Socrates: And in the same way with every other trade (Kai\ ta]lla ou3twj;)?

Anytus: Certainly (Pa/nu ge).

Socrates: Now let me ask you something more about these same instances (W{de dh/ moi pa/lin peri\ tw~n au0tw~n ei0pe/). We should be right, we say, in sending him to the doctors (para\ tou\j i0atrou\j, fame/n, pe/mpontej to/nde, kalw~j a2n e0pe/mpomen) if we wanted him to be a doctor (boulo/menoi i0atro\n gene/sqai). When we say this (a]r’ o3tan tou=to le/gomen), do we mean (to/de le/gomen) that we should be wise in sending him to those (o3ti para\ tou/touj pe/mpontej au0to\n swfronoi=mn a1n) who profess the art (tou\j a0ntipoioume/nouj te th=j te/xnhj) rather than those who do not (ma=llon h2 tou\j mh/), and to those who charge a fee for the particular thing they do (kai\ tou\j misqo\n prattome/nouj e0p’ au0tw~| tou/tw|), as avowed teachers of anyone who wishes to come and learn of them (a0pofh/nantaj au9tou\j didaska/louj tou= boulome/nou i0e/nai te kai\ manqa/nein;)? If these were our reasons, should we not be right in sending him (a[r’ ou0 pro\j tau=ta ble/pontej kalw~j a2n pe/mpoimen;)?

Anytus: Yes (Nai/).

Socrates: And the same would hold in the case of flute-playing, and so on with the rest (Ou0kou=n kai\ peri\ au0lh/sewj kai\ tw~n a1llwn ta\ au0ta\ tau=ta;). What folly, when we wanted to make someone a fluteplayer, to refuse to send him to the professed teachers of the art, who charge a regular fee (pollh\ a1noia/ e0sti boulome/nouj au0lhth/n tina poih=sai para\ me\n tou\j u9pisxnoume/nouj dida/cein th\n texnh\n kai\ misqo\n prattome/nouj mh\ e0qe/lein pe/mpein), and to bother with requests for instruction other people (a1lloij de/ tisi pra/gmata pare/xein, zhtou=nta manqa/nein para\ tou/twn) who neither set up to be teachers nor have a single pupil in that sort of study which we expect him, when sent, to pursue (oi9 mh/te porospoiou=ntai dida/skaloi ei]nai mh/t’ e1stin au0tw~n maqhth\j ou0dei=j tou/tou tou= maqh/matoj, o9 h9mei=j a0ciou=men manqa/nein par’ au0tw~n o4n a2n pe/mpwmen). Do you not consider it would be grossly unreasonable (ou0 pollh/ soi dokei= a0logi/a ei]nai;)?

Anytus: Yes, on my word, I do (Nai\ ma\ Di/a e1moige), and stupid to boot (kai\ a0maqi/a ge pro/j).

Socrates: Quite right (Kalw~j le/geij). And now there is an opportunity of your joining me in a consultation on my friend Meno here (nu=n toi/nun e1xesti/ se met’ e0mou= koinh=| bouleu/esqai peri\ tou= ce/nou toutoui+/ Me/nwnoj). He has been declaring to me ever so long, Anytus (ou[toj ga\r, w} A1nute, pa/lai le/gei pro/j me), that he desires to have that wisdom and virtue (o3ti e0piqumei= tau/thj th=j sofi/aj kai\ a0reth=j) whereby men keep their house or their city in good order (h[| oi9 a!nqrwpoi ta/j te oi0ki/aj kai\ ta\j po/leij eu] dioikou=si), and honour their parents (kai\ tou\j gone/aj tou\j au9tw~n qerapeu/ousi), and know when to welcome and when to speed citizens and strangers (kai\ poli/taj kai\ ce/nouj u9pode/casqai/ te kai\ a0pope/myai e0pi/stantai) as befits a good man (a0ci/wj a0ndro\j a0gaqou=). Now tell me, to whom ought we properly to send him for lessons in this virtue (tau/thn ou]n th\n a0reth\n maqhso/menon sko/pei para\ ti/naj a2n pe/mpontej au0to\n o0rqw~j a2n pe/mpoimen)? Or is it clear enough (h2 dh=lon dh/), from our argument just now (kata\ to\n a1rti lo/gon), that he should go to these men who profess to be teachers of virtue (o3ti para\ tou/touj tou\j u9pisxnoume/nouj a0reth=j dida/skaloi ei]nai) and advertise themselves (kai\ a0pofh/nantej au9tou/j) as the common teachers of the Greeks, and are ready to instruct anyone who chooses in return for fees charged on a fixed scale (koinou\j tw~n E(llh/nwn tw|~ boulome/nw| manqa/nein, misqo\n tou/tou tacame/nouj te kai\ prattome/nouj;)?

Anytus: To whom are you referring (Kai\ ti/naj le/geij tou/touj), Socrates (w} Sw&kratej;)?

Socrates: Surely you know as well as anyone (Oi]sqa dh/pou kai\ su/); they are the men (o3ti ou[toi/ ei0sin) whom people call sophists (ou4j oi9 a1nqrwpoi\ kalou=si sofista/j).

Anytus: For heaven’s sake (H(ra/kleij) hold your tongue (eu0fh/mei), Socrates (w} Sw&kratej). May no kinsman or friend of mine (mhde/na tw~n g’ e0mw~n mh/te oi0kei/wn mh/te filw~n), whether of this city or another (mh/te a0sto\n mh/te ce/non), be seized with such madness (toiau/th mani/a la/boi) as to let himself infected with the company of those men (w#ste para\ tou/toij e0lqo/nta lwbhqh=nai); for they are a manifest plague and corruption (e0pei\ ou[toi/ ge fanera/ e0sti lw&bh te kai\ diafqora\) to those who frequent them (tw~n suggignome/nwn).

Socrates: What is this, Anytus (Pw~j le/geij, w} A1nute;)? Of all the people who set up to understand how to do us good (Ou[toi a1ra mo/noi tw~n a0ntipoioume/nwn ti e0pi/stasqai eu0ergetei=n), do you mean to single out these as conveying not merely no benefit, such as the rest can give, but actually corruption to anyone placed in their hands (tosou=ton tw~n a1llwn diafe/rousin, o3son ou0 mo/non ou0k w)felou=sin, w#sper oi9 a1lloi, o3 ti a1n tij au0toi=j paradw~|, a/lla\ kai\ to\ e0nanti/on diafqei/rousi;)? And is it for doing this that they openly claim the payment of fees (kai\ tou/twn fanerw~j xrh/mata a0ciou=si pra/ttesqai;)? For my part I cannot bring myself to believe you (e0gw_ me\n ou]n ou0k e1xw o3pwj soi pisteu/sw); for I know of one man, Protagoras, who amassed more money by his craft than Pheidias (oi]da ga\r a1ndra e3na Prwtago/ran plei/w xrh/mata kthsa/menon a0po\ tau/thj th=j sofi/aj h2 Feidi/an te) – so famous for the noble works he produced (o4j ou3tw perifanw~j kala\ e1rga ei0rga/zeto) – or any ten other sculptors (kai\ a1llouj de/ka tw~n a0ndriantopoiw~n). And yet how surprising (kai/toi te/raj le/geij) that menders of old shoes (ei0 oi9 me\n ta\ u9podh/mata e0rgazo/menoi ta\ palaia/) and furbishers of clothes (kai\ ta\ i9ma/tia e0cakou/menoi) should not be able to go undetected thirty days if they should return the clothes or shoes in worse condition than they received them (ou0k a2n du/nainto laqei=n tria/konq’ h9me/raj moxqhro/tera a0podido/ntej h2 pare/labon ta\ i9matia/ te kai\ u9podh/mata), and that such doings on their part (a0ll’ ei0 toiau=ta poioi=en) would quickly starve them to death (taxu\ a2n tw~| limw~| a0poqanoi=en), while for more than forty years all Greece failed to notice that Protagoras was corrupting his classes and sending his pupils away in a worse state than when he took charge of them (Prwtago/raj de\ a1ra o3lhn th\n E#llada e0la/nqane diafqei/rwn tou\j sungignome/nouj kai\ moxqhrote/rouj a0pope/mpwn h2 parela/mbane ple/on h2 tettara/konta e1th)! For I believe he died about seventy years old (oi]mai ga\r au0to\n a0poqanei=n e0ggu\j kai\ e9bdomh/konta e1th gegono/ta), forty of which he spent in practice of his art (tettara/konta de\ e0n th=| te/xnh| o1nta); and he retains undiminished to this day the high reputation he has enjoyed all that time (kai\ e0n a3panti tw~| xro/nw| tou/tw| e1ti ei0j th\n h9me/ran tauthni\ eu0dokimw~n ou0de\n pe/pautai) – and not only Protagoras (kai\ ou0 mo/non Prwtago/raj), but a multitude of others too (a0lla\ kai\ a1lloi pa/mpolloi): some who lived before him (oi9 me\n pro/teron gegono/tej e0kei/nou), and others still living (oi9 de\ kai\ nu=n e1ti o1ntej). Now are we to take it (po/teron dh\ ou]n fw~men), according to you (kata\ to\n so\n lo/gon), that they wittingly deceived (ei0do/taj au0tou\j e0capata=n) and corrupted the youth (kai\ lwba=sqai tou\j ne/ouj), or that they were themselves unconscious of it (h2 lelhqe/nai kai\ au0tou/j)? Are we to conclude those who are frequently termed the wisest of mankind to have been so demented as that (kai\ ou3twj mai/nesqai a0ciw&somen tou/touj, ou3j e1nioi/ fasi sofwta/touj a0nqrw&pwn ei[nai;)?

Anytus: Demented! Not they, Socrates (Pollou= ge de/ousi mai/nesqai, w} Sw&kratej): far rather the young men who pay them money (a0lla\ polu\ ma=llon oi9 tou/toij dido/ntej a0rgu/rion tw~n ne/wn), and still more (tou/twn d’ e1ti ma=llon) the relations who let the young men have their way (oi9 tou/toij e0pitre/pontej, oi9 prosh/kontej); and most of all the cities (polu\ de\ ma/lista pa/ntwn ai9 po/leij) that allow them to enter (e0w&sai au0tou\j ei0safiknei=sqai), and do not expel them (kai\ ou0k e0celau/nousai), whether such attempt be made by stranger or citizen (ei1te tij ce/noj e0pixeirei= toiu=to/n ti poiei=n ei1te a0sto/j).

Socrates: Tell me, Anytus, has any of the sophists wronged you (Po/teron de/, w} A1nute, h0di/khse/ ti/j se tw~n sofistw~n)? What makes you so hard on them (h2 ti/ ou3twj au0toi=j xalepo\j ei];)?

Anytus: No, heaven knows I have never in my life had dealings with any of them (Ou0de\ ma\ Di/a e1gwge sugge/gona pw&pote au0tw~n ou0deni/), nor would I let any of my people have to do with them either (ou0d’ a2n a1llon e0a/saimi tw~n e0mw~n ou0de/na).

Socrates: Then you have absolutely no experience of those persons (A1peiroj a1r’ ei] panta/pasi tw~n a0ndrw~n;)?

Anytus: And trust I never may (Kai\ ei1hn ge).

Socrates: How then, my good sir, can you tell whether a thing has any good or evil in it (Pw~j ou]n a1n, w} daimo/nie, ei0dei/hj peri\ tou/tou tou= pra/gmatoj, ei1te ti a0gaqo\n e1xei e0n e9autw|~ ei1te flau/ron), if you are quite without experience of it (ou[ panta/pasin a1peiroj ei1hj;)?

Anytus: Easily: the fact is, I know what these people are, whether I have experience of them or not (R(a|di/wj ׄ tou/touj gou=n oi]da oi3 ei0sin, ei1t’ ou]n a1peiroj au0tw~n ei0mi\ ei1te mh/).

Socrates: You are a wizard, perhaps, Anytus (Ma/ntij ei] i1swj, w} A1nute); for I really cannot see, from what you say yourself, how else you can know anything about them (e0pei\ o3pwj ge a1llwj oi]sqa tou/twn pe/ri, e0c w{n au0to\j le/geij qauma/zoim’ a1n).