Lysias’ speech discussed – Socrates’ rival speech announced

Phaedrus: How does the speech seem to you, Socrates (Ti/ soi fai/netai, w} Sw&kratej, o9 lo/goj;)? Doesn’t it seem to you to be extraordinarily well done, especially in its language (ou0x u9perfuw~j ta/ te a1lla kai\ toi=j o0no/masin ei0rh=sqai;)?

Socrates: Superhumanly (Daimoni/wj), in fact (me\n ou]n), my friend (w} e9tai=re); enough to make me beside myself (w#ste me e0kplagh=nai). And it was because of you, Phaedrus, that I felt as I did (kai\ tou=to e0gw_ e1paqon dia\ se/, w} Fai=dre,), as I looked at you (pro\j se\ a0poble/pwn), because you seemed to me to be positively beaming with delight at the speech as you read it (o3ti e0moi\ e0do/keij ga/nusqai u9po\ tou= lo/gou metacu\ a0nagignw&skwn); for I followed your lead, in the thought that you are more of an expert about such things than me (h9gou/menoj se\ ma=llon h2 e0me\ e0pai+/ein peri\ tw~n toiou/twn soi\ ei9po/mhn), and I joined in the ecstasy with your inspired self (kai\ e9po/menoj suneba/kxeusa meta\ sou= th=j qei/aj kefalh=j).

Phaedrus: Quite so (Ei]en). Do you mean to joke about it like this (ou#tw dh\ dokei= pai/zein;)?

Socrates: Do I really seem to you (Dokw~ ga/r soi) to be joking (pai/zein) and not serious (kai\ ou0xi\ e0spoudake/nai;)?

Phaedrus: Don’t do that (Mhdamw~j), Socrates (w} Sw&kratej); tell me really (a1ll’ w(j a0lhqw~j ei0pe/), if you’re my friend (pro\j Dio\j fili/ou), do you think any other Greek (oi1ei a2n tina\ e1xein ei0pei=n a1llon tw~n E(llh/nwn) would have different things from these to say (e3tera tou&twn), which were weightier (mei/zw) and more in number (kai\ plei/w), about the same matter (peri\ tou= au0tou= pra/gmatoj;)?

Socrates: What (Ti/ de/;)? Should you and I also praise the speech on the grounds (kai\ tau/th| dei= u0p’ e0mou= te kai\ sou= to\n lo/gon e0paineqh=nai) that its creator has said what he should (w(j ta\ de/onta ei0rhko/toj tou= poihtou=), and not just that he has said things clearly (a1ll’ ou0k e0kei/nh| mo/non, o3ti safh/) and in a well-rounded fashion (kai\ stroggu/la), and each and all of his words are precisely turned (kai\ a0kribw~j e3kasta tw~n o0noma/twn a0poteto/rneutai;)? If we should (ei0 ga\r dei=), I must go along with you for your sake (sugxwrhte/on xa/rin sh/n), since at any rate I missed it (e0pei\ e0me/ ge e1laqen), through my feebleness (u9po\ th=j e0mh=j ou0deni/aj); for I was only paying attention to the rhetorical aspect of it (tw~| ga\r r(htorikw~| au0tou= mo/nw| to\n nou=n prosei=xon). In this other respect (tou=to de/), I did not think even Lysias himself thought the speech good enough (ou0d’ a2n au0to\n w!|mhn Lusi/an oi1esqai i9kano\n ei]nai); and in fact he seemed to me (kai\ ou]n moi e1docen), Phaedrus (w} Fai=dre), unless you disagree with me (ei0 mh/ ti su\ a1llo le/geij), to have said the same things two or three times over (di\j kai\ tri\j ta\ au0ta\ ei0rhke/nai), as if he was not altogether well off (w(j ou0 pa/nu eu0porw~n) so far as concerns saying many things about the same subject (tou= polla\ le/gein peri\ tou= au0tou=), or else perhaps because he didn’t care at all about this sort of thing (h2 i1swj ou0de\n au0tw~| me/lon tou= toiou&tou); indeed he seemed to me to be behaving with a youthful swagger (kai\ e0fai/neto dh/ moi neanieu/esqai), showing off his ability (e0pideiknu/menoj w(j oi[o/j te w!n) to say the same things in two different ways (tau0ta\ e9te/rwj te kai\ e9te/rwj le/gwn), and say them excellently either way (a0mfote/rwj ei0pei=n a1rista).

Phaedrus: You’re talking nonsense (Ou0de\n le/geij), Socrates (w} Sw&kratej); the very thing you mention (au0to\ ga\r tou=to) is in fact the main feature of the speech (kai\ ma/lista o0 lo/goj e1xei). Nothing waiting in the subject to be expressed in a way worthy of it has been left out (tw~n ga\r e0no/ntwn a0ci/wj r9hqh=nai e0n tw~| pra/gmati ou0de\n parale/loipen), so that no one could ever say things in greater quantity or of greater value than he has said (w#ste para\ ta\ e0kei/nw| ei0rhme/na mhde/n’ a1n pote du/nasqai ei0pei=n a1lla plei/w kai\ plei/onoj a1cia).

Socrates: I shan’t be able to agree with you about that (Tou=to e0gw& soi ou0ke/ti oi[o/j t’ e1somai piqe/sqai); I shall be refuted by men and women of antiquity and wisdom who have spoken and written about the subject (palaioi\ ga\r kai\ sofoi\ a1ndrej te kai\ gunai=kej peri\ au0tw~n ei0rhko/tej kai\ gegrafo/tej e0cele/gcousi/ me), if I agree in order to please you (e0a/n soi xarizo/menoj sugxwrw~).

Phaedrus: Who are these people (Ti/nej ou[toi;)? And where have you heard anything better than this (kai\ pou= su\ belti/w tou/twn a0kh/koaj;

Socrates: At the moment I can’t say, just like that (Nu=n me\n ou#twj ou0k e1xw ei0pei=n), but I must have heard something (dh=lon de\ o2ti tinw~n a0kh/koa), perhaps from the excellent Sappho (h1 pou Sapfou=j th=j kalh=j), or the wise Anacreon (h2 A)nakre/ontoj tou= sofou=), or indeed some prose-writers (h2 kai\ suggrafe/wn tinw~n). On what ground do I say this (po/qen dh\ tekmairo/menoj le/gw;)? My breast is full, if I may say so, my fine fellow (plhre/j pwj, w} daimo/nie, to\ sth/qoj e1xwn ai0sqa/nomai), and makes me feel I could say things which are different from what Lysias says (para\ tau=ta ei0pei=n e3tera), and no worse (mh\ xei/rw). I am well aware that none of them has its source in my own mind (o3ti me\n ou]n para/ ge e0mautou= ou0de\n au0tw~n e0neno/hka, eu] oi]da), because I know my own ignorance (suneidw_j e0mautw~| a0maqi/an); the only alternative, I think, is that I have been filled up through my ears, like a vessel, from someone else’s streams (lei/petai dh\ oi]mai e0c a0llotri/wn poqe\n nama/twn dia\ th=j a0koh=j peplhrwsqai/ me di/khn a0ggei/ou). But dullness again (u9po\ de\ nwqei/aj au]) has made me forget (kai\ au0to\ tou=to e0pile/lhsmai) just how I heard I and from whom (o3pwj te kai\ w{ntinwn h1kousa).

Phaedrus: Admirable! I do like what you’ve said (A)ll’ w} gennaio/tate, ka/llista ei1rhkaj). Don’t you tell me from whom you heard it and how, even if I press you (Su\ ga\r e0moi\ w{ntinwn me\n kai\ o3pwj h1kousaj mhd’ a2n keleu/w ei1ph|j), but do just as you say (tou=to de\ au0to\ o9 le/geij poi/hson) you’ve promised to say different things which are better and no fewer in quantity than what is in the book (tw~n e0n tw~| bibli/w| belti/w te kai\ mh\ e0la/ttw e3tera u9pe/sxhsai ei0pei=n), keeping away from that (tou/twn a0pexo/menoj); I in my turn promise you, like the nine archons, to set up a golden statue of equal weight at Delphi (kai/ soi e0gw&, w#sper oi9 e0nne/a a1rxontej, u9pisxnou=mai xrush=n ei0ko/na i0some/trhton ei0j Delfou\j a0naqh/sein) – not only one of me (ou0 mo/non e0mautou=), but also one of you (a0lla\ kai\ sh/n).

Socrates: You are a very dear man, Phaedrus, a friend really worth your weight to me in gold (Fi/ltatoj ei] kai w(j a0lhqw~j xrusou\j, w} Fai=dre), if you think I mean (ei1 me oi1ei le/gein) that Lysias has completely missed the mark (w(j Lusi/aj tou= panto\j h9ma/rthken), and that I’m actually able to say things which are different from everything he says (kai\ oi[o/n te dh\ para\ pa/nta tau=ta a1lla ei0pei=n); that couldn’t, I think, happen even to the worst writer (tou=to de\ oi]mai ou0d’ a2n to\n faulo/taton paqei=n sungrafe/a). To begin with, on the subject of the speech (au0ti/ka peri\ ou[ o9 lo/goj), who do you think, if he is saying that one should grant favours to the non-lover rather than the lover (ti/na oi1ei le/gonta w(j xrh\ mh\ e0rw~nti ma=llon h2 e0rw~nti xari/zesqai), can omit to praise the good sense of the one (pare/nta tou= me\n to\ fro/nimon e0gkwmia/zein) and censure the lack of sense of the other (tou= de\ to\ a1fron ye/gein), these being the indispensable points (a0nagkai=a gou=n o1nta), and then have something other than that to say (ei]t’ a1ll’ a1tta e3cein le/gein;)? In my view such points must be allowed (a0ll’ oi]mai ta\ me\n toiau=ta e0ate/a), and one should be forgiven for making them (kai\ suggnwste/a lego/nti); with such things (kai\ tw~n me\n toiou/twn), what should be praised is not so much the invention as the arrangement (ou0 th\n eu3resin a0lla\ th\n dia/qesin e0painhte/on), whereas with things that are not essential (tw~n de\ mh\ a0nagkai/wn te), and difficult to invent (kai\ xalepw~n eu9rei=n), we should praise the invention as well as the arrangement (pro\j th\| diaqe/sei kai\ th\n eu3resin).

Phaedrus: I agree with what you say (Sugxwrw~ o4 le/geij); it seems a reasonable statement (metri/wj ga/r moi dokei=j ei0rhke/nai). So for my part, I’ll behave like this (poih/sw ou]n kai\ e0gw_ ou#twj): I’ll allow you to make it an assumption that the man in love is more sick than the man not in love (to\ me\n to\n e0rw~nta tou= mh\ e0rw~ntoj ma=llon nosei=n dw&sw soi u9poti/qesqai); but when you’ve made a speech different from Lysias’ in all other respects, which contains more and of greater value (tw~n de\ loipw~n e3tera plei/w kai\ plei/onoj a1cia ei0pw_n tw~nde), then you’ll stand in hammered metal beside the votive offering of the Cypselids at Olympia (para\ to\ Kuyelidw~n a0na/qhma sfurh/latoj e0n Olumpi/a| sta/qhti).

Socrates: Have you been taking me seriously (E)spou/dakaj), Phaedrus (w} Fai=dre), because I made a teasing attack on your darling (o3ti sou tw~n paidikw~n e0pelabo/mhn e0resxhlw~n se)? Do you think I would really try to say something different, of greater variety, to set beside his wisdom (kai\ oi1ei dh/ me w(j a0lhqw~j e0pixeirh/sein ei0pei=n para\ th\n e0kei/nou sofi/an e3tero/n ti poikilw&teron;)?

Phaedrus: Here, my friend, I can really get to grips with you (Peri\ me\n tou/tou, w} fi/le, ei0j ta\j o9moi/aj laba\j e0lh/luqaj). You absolutely must speak (r9hte/on me\n ga/r soi panto\j ma=llon ou3twj o3pwj oi3o/j te ei]), to avoid our being forced to behave in the vulgar way we see on the comic stage (i3na mh\ to\ tw~n kwmw|dw~n fortiko\n pra=gma a0nagkazw&meqa poiei=n), exchanging jibes (a0ntapodido/ntej a0llh/loij); watch out, and don’t deliberately make me give you a (kai\ mh\ bou/lou me a0nagka/sai le/gein e0kei=no to\) ‘Socrates, if I don’t know Socrates (“ei0 e0gw&, w} Sw&kratej, Swkra/thn a0gnow~), I’ve even forgotten who I am’ (kai\ e0mautou= e0pile/lhsmai”), or a (kai\ o3ti) ‘he wanted to speak (“e0pequ/me me\n le/gein), but put on a pose’ (e0qru/pteto de/”). Just make up your mind (a0lla\ dianoh/qhti) that we won’t leave this spot (o3ti e0nteu/qen ou0k a1pimen) until you say what you were claiming you had ‘in your breast’ (pri\n a2n su\ ei1ph|j a2 e1fhsqa e0n tw~| sth/qei e1xein). We’re alone (e0sme\n de\ mo/nw|) in a deserted place (e0n e0rhmi/a|), and I am stronger (i0sxuro/teroj d’e0gw_) and younger than you (kai\ new&teroj); from all of which (e0k de\ a9pa/ntwn tou/twn) ‘grasp the meaning of my words’ (“su/nej o3 toi le/gw”), and don’t be inclined to prefer to be forced to speak than to do it voluntarily (kai\ mhdamw~j pro\j bi/an boulhqh=|j ma=llon h2 e9kw_n le/gein).

Socrates: But (A)ll’), Phaedrus, you lucky fellow (w} maka/rie Fai=dre), I shall be a laughing-stock (geloi=oj e1somai) if I improvise as a layman in competition with an expert craftsman (par’ a0gaqo\n poihth\n i0diw&thj au0tosxedia/zwn) on the same subjects (peri\ tw~n au0tw~n).

Phaedrus: I warn you (Oi]sq’ w(j e1xei;), stop being coy with me (pau=sai pro/j me kallwpizo/menoj). I’ve got something to say which will pretty well force you to speak (sxedo\n ga\r e1xw o4 ei0pw_n a0nagka/sw se le/gein).

Socrates: Then don’t say it (Mhdamw~j toi/nun ei1ph|j).

Phaedrus: No (Ou9k), I shall (a0lla\ kai\ dh\ le/gw); and it’ll be an oath (o9 de/ moi lo/goj o3rkoj e1stai), I swear to you (o1mnumi ga/r soi) – but by whom (ti/na me/ntoi), by which god (ti/na qew&n;)? What about this plane-tree here (h2 bou/lei th\n pla/tanon tauthni/;)? – I swear (h] mh/n) that if you don’t make your speech in its very presence (e0a/n moi mh\ ei1ph|j to\n lo/gon e0nanti/on au0th=j tau/thj) I shan’t display or report to you any speech of anyone’s ever again (mhde\pote/ soi e3teron lo/gon mhde/na mhdeno\j mh/te e0pidei/cein mh/te e0caggelei=n).

Socrates: You devil, you! (Babai/, w} miare/) How cleverly you’ve found the way to force (w(j eu] a0neu=rej th\n a0na/gkhn) a lover of speeches (a0ndri\ filolo/gw|) to do what you tell him (poiei=n a4 a2n keleu/h|j).

Phaedrus: So why go on twisting and turning (Ti/ dh=ta e1xwn stre/fh|;)?

Socrates: Not any longer (Ou0de\n e1ti), now that you’ve sworn that (e0peidh\ su/ ge tau=ta o0mw&mokaj). How would I be able to keep myself away from feasts of that sort (pw~j ga\r a2n oi[o/j t’ ei1hn toiau/thj qoi/nhj a0pe/xesqai;)?

Phaedrus: Speak then (Le/ge dh/).

Socrates: Do you know what I shall do, then (Oi]sq’ ou]n w(j poih/sw;)?

Phaedrus: About what (Tou= pe/ri;)?

Socrates: I shall speak with my head covered (E)gkaluya/menoj e0rw~), so that I can rush through my speech as quickly as I can (i3n’ o3ti ta/xista diadra/mw to\n lo/gon) and not lose my way through shame, from looking at you (kai\ mh\ ble/pwn pro\j se\ u9p’ ai0sxu/nhj diaporw~mai).

Phaedrus: Just speak (Le/ge mo/non); for the rest (ta\ d’ a1lla), do as you like (o3pwj bou/lei poi/ei).