Monday, March 25, 2024

Euthyphro 6

Socrates: Now tell me (Le/ge dh/ moi), is a thing which is carried (po/teron to\ fero/menon) a carried thing because one carries it (dio/ti fe/retai, fero/meno/n e0stin), or for some other reason (h2 di a1llo ti;)?

Euthyphro: No, for that reason (Ou1k, a0lla\ dia\ tou=to).

Socrates: And a thing which is led is lead (Kai\ to\ a0go/menon dh/) because one leads it (dio/ti a1getai), and a thing which is seen is so (kai\ to o9rw~menon) because one sees it (dio/ti o9ra=tai)?

Euthyphro: Certainly (Pa/nu ge).

Socrates: Then one does not see it because it is a seen thing (Ou0k a1ra dio/ti o9rw&meno/n ge/ e0stin, dia\ tou=to o9ra=tai), but, on the contrary (a0lla\ to\ e0nanti/on), it is a seen thing because one sees it (dio/ti o9ra=tai, dia\ tou=to o9rw~menon); and one does not lead it because it is a led thing (ou0de\ dio/ti a0go/meno/n e0stin, dia\ tou=to a1getai), but it is a led thing because one leads it (a0lla\ dio/ti a1getai, dia\ tou=to a0go/menon); and one does not carry it because it is a carried thing (ou0de\ dio/ti fero/menon, fe/retai), but it is a carried thing because one carries it (a0lla\ dio/ti fe/retai, fero/menon). Is it clear (a]ra kata/dhlon), Euthyphro (w} Eu0qu/fron), what I am trying to say (o4 bou/lomai le/gein;)? I am trying to say this (bou/lomai de\ to/de), that (o3ti) if anything becomes or undergoes (ei1 ti gi/gnetai h2 pa/sxei), it does not become because it is in a state of becoming (ou0x o3ti gignomeno/n e0sti, gi/gntai) but it is in a state of becoming because it becomes (a0lla\ dio/ti gi/gnetai, gigno/meno/n e0stin), and it does not undergo because it is a thing which undergoes (ou0d o3ti pasxo/menon e0sti, pa/sxei), but because it undergoes (a0ll o3ti pa/sxei) it is a thing which undergoes (pa/sxon e0sti/n); or do you not agree to this (h2 ou0 cugxwrei=j ou3tw;)?

Euthyphro: I agree (E!gwge).

Socrates: Is not that which is beloved a thing which is either becoming or undergoing something (Ou0kou=n kai\ to\ filou/menon h2 gigno/meno/n ti/ e0stin h2 pa/sxon ti u9po/ tou;)?

Euthyphro: Certainly (Pa/nu ge)

Socrates: And is this case (Kai\ tou=to a1ra ou3twj e1xei) like the former ones (w#sper ta\ pro/tera;): those who love it do not love it because it is a loved thing (ou0x o3ti filou/meno/n e0stin, filei=tai u9po\ w{n filei=tai), but it is a beloved thing because they love it (a0ll o2ti filei=tai, filou/menon;)?

Euthyphro: Obviously (A0na/gkh).

Socrates: Now what do you say about that which is holy (Ti/ dh\ ou]n le/gomen peri\ tou= o9si/ou;), Euthyphro (w} Eu0qu/fron;)? It is loved by all the gods, is it not (a1llo ti filei=tai u9po\ qew~n pa/ntwn), according to what you said (w(j o9 so\j lo/goj;)?

Euthyphro: Yes (Nai/).

Socrates: For this reason (A]ra dia\ tou=to), because it is holy (o3ti o3sio/n e0stin), or for some other reason (h2 di a1llo ti;)?

Euthyphro: No, for this reason (Ou0k, a0lla\ dia\ tou=to).

Socrates: It is loved because it is holy, not holy because it is loved (Dio/ti a1ra o3sio/n e0stin, filei=tai, a0ll ou0x o3ti filei=tai, dia/ tou=to o9sio/n e0stin;)?

Euthyphro: I think so (E!oiken).

Socrates: But that which is dear to the gods is dear to them and beloved by them because they love it (A0lla\ me\n dh\ dio/ti ge filei=tai u9po\ qew~n, filou=meno/n e0sti kai\ qeofile\j to\ qeofile/j).

 Euthyphro: Of course (Pw~j ga\r ou1;).

Socrates: Then that which is dear to the gods and that which is holy are not identical, but differ from one another (Ou0k a1ra to qeofile\j o(sio/n e0stin, w} Eu0qu/fron, ou0de/ to/ o3sion qeofile/j, w(j su\ le/geij, a0ll e3teron tou=to tou/tou).

Euthyphro: How so, Socrates (Pw~j dh/, w} Sw&kratej;)?

Socrates: Because we are agreed (O#ti o9mologou=men) that the holy is loved because it is holy (to\ me\n o3sion dia\ tou=to filei=sqai, o3ti o9sio/n e0stin) and that it is not holy because it is loved (a0ll ou0 dio/ti filei=tai, o3sion ei]nai); are we not (h] ga/r;)?

Euthyphro: Yes (Nai/).

Socrates: But we are agreed that what is dear to the gods is dear to them because they love it, that is, by reason of this love, not that they love it because it is dear (To\ de/ ge qeofile\j o3ti filei=tai u9po\ qew~n, au0tw~| tou/tw| tw~| filei=sqai qeofile\j ei]nai, a0ll ou0x o3ti qeofile/j, dia\ tou=to filei=sqai).

Euthyphro: Very true (A0lhqh= le/geij).

Socrates: But if that which is dear to the gods and that which is holy were identical, my dear Euthyphro (A0ll ei1 ge tau0to\n h]n, w} fi/le Eu0qu/fron, to\ qeofile\j kai\ to\ o3sion), then if the holy were loved because it is holy (ei0 me\n dia\ to\ o3sion ei]nai e0filei=to to\ o3sion), that which is dear to the gods would be loved because it is dear (kai\ dia\ to\ qeofile\j ei]nai e0filei=to a2n to\ qeofile/j), and if that which is dear to the gods is dear because it is loved (ei0 de\ dia\ to\ filei=sqai u9po\ qew~n to\ qeofile\j qeofile\j h]n), then that which is holy would be holy because it is loved (kai\ to\ o3sion a1n dia\ to\ filei=sqai o3sion h]n); but now you see (nu=n de\ o9ra=|j) that the opposite is the case (o3ti e0nanti/wj e1xeton), showing that the two are entirely different from each other (w(j panta/pasin e3te/rw o1nte a0llh/lwn). For the one becomes lovable from the fact that it is loved (to\ me\n ga/r, o3ti filei=tai, e0sti\n oi[on filei=sqai), whereas the other is loved because it is in itself lovable (to\ d o3ti e0sti\n oi[on filei=sqai, dia\ tou=to filei=tai). And Euthyphro, it seems that when you were asked (kai\ kinduneu/eij, w} Eu0qu/fron, e0rwtw&menoj) what holiness is (to\ o3sion, o3 ti/ pote1stin) you were unwilling to make plain its essence (th\n me\n ou0si/an moi au0tou= ou0 bou/lesqai dhlw~sai), but you mentioned something that has happened to this holiness (pa/qoj de/ ti peri\ au0tou= le/gein, o3 ti pe/ponqe tou=to to\ o3sion), namely, that it is loved by the gods (filei=sqai u9po\ pa/ntwn qew~n). But you did not tell us yet, what it really is (o3 ti de\ o1n, ou1pw ei]pej). So, if you please (ei0 ou]n soi fi/lon), do not hide it from me (mh/ me a0pokru/yh|), but begin over again and tell me (a1lla\ pa/lin ei0pe\ e0c a0rxh=j) what holiness is (ti/ pote o2n to\ o3sion), no matter whether it is loved by the gods or anything else happens to it (ei1te filei=tai u9po\ tw~n qew~n ei1te o9tidh\ pa/sxei); for we shall not quarrel about that (ou0 ga\r peri\ tou/tou dioiso/meqa). But tell me frankly (a0ll ei0pe\ proqu/mwj), What is (ti/ e0stin) holiness, and what is unholiness (to/ te o3sion kai\ to\ a0no/sion)?

Euthyphro: But, Socrates, I do not know how to say what I mean (A0ll, w} Sw&kratej, ou0k e1xw e1gwge, o3pwj soi ei1pw o4 now~). For whatever statement we advance, somehow or other it moves about (perie/rxetai ga/r pw~j h9mi=n a0ei\ o4 a2n proqw&meqa) and won’t stay where we put it (kai\ ou0k e0qe/lei me\nein o3pou a2n i9drusw&meqa au0to/).

Socrates: Your statements, Euthyphro, are like works of my ancestor Daedalus (Tou= h9mete/rou progo/nou, w} Eu0qu/fron, e1oiken ei]nai Daida/lou ta\ u9po\ sou= lego/mena),

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H.N. Fowler comments: Socrates was the son of a sculptor and was himself educated to be a sculptor. This is doubtless the reason for his reference to Daedalus as an ancestor. Daedalus was a half mythical personage whose statues were said to have been so lifelike that they moved their eyes and walked about.

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and if I were the one who made or advanced them (kai\ ei0 me\n au0ta\ e0gw_ e1legon kai\ e0tiqe/mhn), you might laugh at me and say (i1swj a1n me e0skw&ptej) that on account of my relationship to him my works in words run away (w(j a1ra e0moi\ kata\ th\n e0kei/nou cugge/neian ta\ e0n toi=j lo/goij e1rga a0podidra/skei) and won’t stay where they are put (kai\ ou0k e0qelei\ me/nein o3pou a1n tij au0ta\ qh=|). But now (nu=n de/ ge) – well, the statements are yours (sai\ ga\r ai9 u9poqe/seij ei0si/n); so some other jest is demanded (a1llou dh/ tinoj dei= skw&mmatoj); for they won’t stay fixed (ou0 ga\r e0qe/lousi soi\ me/nein), as you yourself see (w(j au0tw~| soi dokei=).

Euthyphro: I think (E)moi\ de\ dokei=) the jest does very well as it is; for I am not the one who makes these statements move about and not stay in the same place, but you are the Daedalus (sxedo/n ti tou= a0tou= skw&mmatoj, w} Sw&kratej, dei=sqai ta\ lego/mena, to\ ga\r periie/nai tou/toij tou=to kai\ mh\ me/nein e0n tw~| au0tw~| ou0k ei]mi e0gw_ o9 e0ntiqei/j, a\lla\ su/ moi dokei=j o9 Dai/daloj); for they would have stayed, so far as I am concerned (e0pei\ e0mou= ge e3neka e1menen a2n au0ta\ ou3twj).

Socrates: Apparently then, my friend (Kinduneu/w a1ra, w} e9tai=re), I am a more clever artist than Daedalus (e0kei/nou tou= a1ndro\j deino/teroj gegone/nai th\n te/xnhn), inasmuch as he made only his own works move (tosou/tw| o3sw| o9 me\n ta\ au9tou= mo/na e0poi/ei ou0 me/nonta), whereas I, as it seems, give motion to the works of others as well as to my own (e0gw_ de\ pro\j toi=j e0mautou=, w(j e1oike, kai\ ta\ a0llo/tria). And the most exquisite thing about my art is (kai\ dh=ta tou=to/ moi th=j te/xnhj e0sti\ komyo/taton) that I am clever against my will (o3ti a1kwn ei]mi sofo/j); for I would rather have my words have fixed and stable (e0boulo/mhn a1n moi tou\j lo/gouj me/nein kai\ a0kinh=twj i9dru=sqai ma=llon) than possess the wisdom of Daedalus and the wealth of Tantalus besides (h2 pro\j th|= Daida/lou sofi/a| ta\ Tanta/lou xrh/mata gene/sqai). But enough of this (kai\ tou/twn me\n a3dhn). Since you seem to be indolent (e0peidh\ de/ moi dokei=j su\ trufa=n), I will aid you myself (au0to/j soi cumproqumh/somai), so that you may instruct me (o3pwj a1n me dida/ch|j) about holiness (peri\ tou= o9si/ou). And do not give it up beforehand (kai\ mh\ proapoka/mh|j). Just see whether you do not think that everything that is holy is right (i0de\ ga/r, ei0 ou0k a0nagkai=o/n soi dokei= di/kaion ei]nai pa=n to\ o3sion).

Euthyphro: I do (E!moige).

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