Euthyphro 5

Euthyphro: But I think (A9ll’ oi]mai), Socrates (w} Sw&kratej), that none of the gods disagrees with any other about this (peri/ ge tou/tou tw~n qew~n ou0de/na e3teron e9te/rw| diafe/resqai), or holds that who kills anyone wrongfully, ought not to pay the penalty (w(j ou0 dei= di/khn dido/nai e0kei=non, o4j a2n a0di/kwj tina\ a0poktei/nh|).

Socrates: Well, Euthyphro, to return to men (Ti/ de/; a0nqrw&pwn, w} Eu0qu/fron), did you ever hear anybody arguing (h1dh tino\j h1kousaj a0mfisbhtou=ntoj) that he who had killed anyone wrongfully, or had done anything else whatever wrongfully (w(j to\n a0di/kwj a0poktei/nanta h2 a1llo a0di/kwj poiou=nta o9tiou=n), ought not to pay the penalty (ou0 dei= di/khn dido/nai;)?

Euthyphro: Why, they are always arguing these points (Ou0de\n me\n ou]n pau/ontai tau=ta a0mfisbhtou=ntej), especially in the law courts (kai\ a1lloqi kai\ e0n toi=j dikasthri/oij). For they do many wrong things (a0dikou=ntej ga\r pa/mpolla); and then there is nothing they will not do (pa/nta poiou=si) or say (kai\ le/gousi), in defending themselves, to avoid penalty (feu/gontej th\n di/khn).                                                                                                                                                                              Socrates: Yes, but do they acknowledge, Euthyphro (H} kai\ o9mologou=sin, w} Eu0qu/fron), that they have done wrong (a0dikei=n) and, although they acknowledge it (kai\ o9mologou=ntej), nevertheless say they ought not pay the penalty (o3mwj ou0 dei=n fasi sfa=j dido/nai di/khn;)?

Euthyphro: Oh, no, they don’t do that (Ou0damw~j tou=to/ ge).

Socrates: Then there is something they do not do and say (Ou0k a1ra pa=n ge poiou=si kai\ le/gousi). For they do not, I fancy, dare to say and argue (tou=to ga/r, oi]mai, ou0 tolmw~si le/gein ou0d’ a0mfisbhtei=n) that, if they have really done wrong, they ought not to pay the penalty (w(j ou=xi/, ei1per a0dikou=si/ ge, dote/on di/khn); but, I think, they say they have not done wrong; do they not  (a0ll’, oi]mai, ou1 fasin a0dikei=n)?

Euthyphro: You are right (A0lhqh= le/geij).

Socrates: Then they do not argue this point (Ou0k a1ra e0kei=no/ ge a=mfisbhtou=sin), that the wrongdoer must not pay the penalty (w(j ou0 to\n a0dikou=nta dei= dido/nai di/khn); but perhaps they argue about this (a0ll’ e0kei=no i1swj a0mfisbhtou=si), who is a wrongdoer (to\ ti/j e0stin o9 a0dikw~n), and what he did (kai\ ti/ drw~n), and when (kai\ po/te).

Euthyphro: You are right (A0lhqh= le/geij).

Socrates: Then is not the same thing true of the gods (Ou0kou=n au0ta/ ge tau=ta kai\ oi9 qeoi\ pepo/nqasin), if they quarrel about right and wrong (ei1per stasia/zousi peri\ tw~n dikai/wn kai\ a0dikw~n), as you say (w(j o9 so\j lo/goj), and some say others have done wrong (kai\ oi9 me/n fasin a0llh/louj a0dikei=n), and some say they have not (oi9 de\ ou1 fasin)? For surely, my friend, no one, either of gods or men, has the face to say (e0pei\ e0keino/ ge dh/pou, w} qauma/sie, ou0dei\j ou1te qew~n ou1te a0nqrw&pwn tolma=| le/gein) that he who does wrong ought not to pay the penalty (w(j ou0 tw~| ge a0dikou=nti dote/on di/khn).

Euthyphro: Yes (Nai/), you are right about this (tou=to me\n a0lhqe\j le/geij), Socrates (w} Sw&kratej), in the main (to\ kefa/laion).

Socrates: But I think, Euthyphro, those who dispute, both men and gods, if the gods do dispute, dispute about each separate act (A0ll’ e3kasto/n ge oi]mai, w} Eu0qu/fron, tw~n praxqe/ntwn a0mfisbhtou=sin oi9 a0mfisbhtou=ntej, kai\ a1nqrwpoi kai\ qeoi/, ei1per a0mfsbhtou=sin qeoi/). When they differ with one another about any act (pra/cew&j tinoj pe/ri diafero/menoi), some say it was right (oi9 me\n dikai/wj fasi\n au0th\n pepra=xqai) and others that it was wrong (oi9 de\ a0di/kwj). Is it not so (a]r’ ou0x ou3tw;)?

Euthyphro: Certainly (Pa/nu ge).

Socrates: Come now (I!qu nu=n), my dear Euthyphro (w} fi/le Eu0qu/fron), inform me (di/dacon kai\ e0me/), that I may be made wiser (i3na sofw&teroj ge/nwmai), what proof you have (ti/ soi tekmh/rio/n e0stin) that all the gods think (w(j pa/ntej qeoi\ h9gou=ntai) that the man lost his life wrongfully (e0kei=non a0di/kwj teqna/nai), who (o4j a2n), when he was a servant, committed a murder (qhteu/wn a0ndrofo/noj geno/menoj), was bound by the master of the man he killed (cundeqei\j u9po\ tou= despo/tou tou= a0poqano/ntoj), and died as a result of his bonds (fqa/sh| teleuth/saj dia\ ta\ desma/) before the master who had bound him found out from the advisers (pri\n to\n cundh/santa para\ tw~n e0chghtw~n peri\ au0tou= puqe/sqai) what he ought to do with him (ti/ xrh\ poiei=n), and that it is right on account of such a man for a son to proceed against his father and accuse him of murder (kai\ u9pe\r tou= toiou/tou dh\ o0rqw~j e1xei e0pecie/nai kai\ e0piskh/ptesqai fo/nou to\n ui9o\n tw~| patri/). Come (i1qi), try to show me clearly about this (peri\ tou/twn peirw~ ti/ moi safe\j e0ndei/casqai), that the gods surely believe that this conduct is right; (w(j panto\j ma=llon pa/ntej qeoi\ h9gou=ntai o0rqw~j e1xein tau/thn th\n pra=cin) and if you show it to my satisfaction (ka1n moi i9kanw~j e0ndei/ch|), I will glorify your wisdom as long as I live (e0gkwmia/zwn se e0pi\ sofi/a| ou0de/pote pau/somai).

Euthyphron: But perhaps this is no small task (A0ll’ i1swj ou0k o0li/gon e1rgon e0sti/n), Socrates (w} Sw&kratej), though I could show you quite clearly (e0pei\ pa/nu ge safw~j e1xoimi a2n e0pidei=cai/ soi).

Socrates: I understand (Manqa/nw); it is because you think I am slower to understand than the judges (o3ti soi dokw~ tw~n dikastw~n dusmaqe/steroj ei]nai); since it is plain that you will show them (e0pei\ e0kei/noij ge e0ndei/cei dh=lon o3ti) that such acts are wrong  (w(j a1dika/ te/ e0stin) and that all the gods hate them (kai\ oi9 qeoi\ a3pantej ta\ toiau=ta misou=sin).

Euthyphro: Quite clearly, Socrates (Pa/nu ge safw~j, w} Sw&kratej); that is, if they listen to me (e0a/n per a0kou/wsi/ ge/ mou le/gontoj).

Socrates: They will listen (A0ll’ a0kou/sontai), if they find that you are a good speaker (e0a/n per eu] dokh=|j le/gein). But this occurred to me while you were talking (to/de de/ sou e0neno/hsa a3ma le/gontoj), and I said to myself (kai\ pro\j e0mauto\n skopw~): “If Euthyphro should prove to me no matter how clearly that all the gods think such a death is wrongful (ei0 o3ti ma/lista/ me Eu0qu/frwn dida/ceie w(j oi9 qeoi\ a3pantej to\n toiou=ton qa/naton h9gou=ntai a1dikon ei]nai), what have I learned from Euthyphro about the question (ti/ ma=llon e0gw_ mema/qhka par’ Eu0qu/fronoj), what is holiness and what is unholiness (ti/ pot’ e0sti\n to\ o9sio/n te kai\ to\ a0no/sion)? For this act would, as it seems, be hateful to the gods (qeomise\j me\n ga\r tou=to to\ e1rgon, w(j e1oiken, ei1h a1n); but we saw just now that holiness and its opposite are not defined in this way (a0lla\ ga\r ou0 tou/tw| e0fa/nh a1rti w(risme/na to\ o3sion kai\ mh/); for we saw that what is hateful to the gods is also dear to them (to\ ga\r qeomise\j o2n kai\ qeofile\j e0fa/nh); and so I let you off any discussion of this point, Euthyphro (w#ste tou/tou a0fi/hmi/ se, w} Eu0qu/fron). If you like (ei0 bou/lei), all the gods may think it wrong and may hate it (pa/ntej au0to\ h9gei/sqwn qeoi\ a1dikon kai\ pa/ntej misou/ntwn). But shall we now emend our definition (A0ll’ a]ra tou=to nu=n e0panorqw&meqa e0n tw~| lo/gw|) and say that whatever all the gods hate (w(j o4 me\n a2n pa/ntej oi9 qeoi\ misw~sin) is unholy (a0no/sio/n e0stin) and whatever they all love (o4 d’ a2n filw~sin) is holy (o3sion), and what some love (o4 d’ a2n oi9 me\n filw~sin) and others hate (oi9 de\ misw&sin) is neither (ou0de/tera) or both (h2 a0mfo/tera;)? Do you wish this now to be our definition of holiness and unholiness (a]r’ ou3tw bou/lei h9mi=n w(ri/sqai nu=n peri\ tou= o9si/ou kai\ tou= a0nosi/ou;)?

Euthyphro: What is to hinder, Socrates (Ti/ ga\r kwlu/ei, w} Sw&kratej;)?

Socrates: Nothing, so far as I am concerned, Euthyphro (Ou9de\n e0me/ ge, w} Eu0qu/fron), but consider your own position (a0lla\ su\ dh\ to\ so\n sko/pei), whether by adopting this definition (ei0 tou=to u9poqe/menoj) you will most easily teach me (ou3tw r9a=|sta/ me dida/ceij) what you promised (o4 u9pe/sxou).

Euthyphro: Well, I should say (A0ll’ e1gwge fai/hn a2n) that what all the gods love is holy (tou=to ei]nai to\ o3sion, o4 a2n pa/ntej oi9 qeoi\ filw~sin) and, on the other hand (kai\ to\ e0na/ntion), what they all hate (o4 a2n pa/ntej oi9 qeoi\ misw~sin) is unholy (a0no/sion).

Socrates: Then shall we examine this again, Euthyphro (Ou0kou=n e0piskopw~men au] tou=to, w} Eu0qu/fron), to see if it is correct (ei0 kalw~j le/getai), or shall we let it go (h2 e0w~men) and accept our own statement, and those of others, agreeing that it is so, if anyone merely says that it is (kai\ ou3tw h9mw~n te au0tw~n a0podexw&meqa kai\ tw~n a1llwn, e0a\n mo/non fh=| ti/j ti e1xein ou3tw, cugxwrou=ntej e1xein;)? Or ought we to inquire into the correctness of the statement (h2 skepte/on, ti/ le/gei o9 le/gwn;)?

Euthyphro: We ought to inquire. However, I think this is now correct (Skepte/on, oi]mai me/ntoi e1gwge tou=to nuni\ kalw~j le/gesqai).

Socrates: We shall soon know more about this, my friend (Ta/x’, w}gaqe/, be/ltion ei0so/meqa). Just consider this question (e0nno/hson ga\r to\ toio/nde): – Is that which is holy loved by the gods because it is holy (a]ra to\ o3sion, o3ti o9sio/n e0stin, filei=tai u9po\ tw~n qew~n), or is it holy because it is loved by gods (h2 o3ti filei=tai o9sio/n e0stin;)?

Euthyphro: I don’t know what you mean, Socrates (Ou0k oi]d’ o3 ti le/geij, w} Sw&kratej).

Socrates: Then I will try to speak more clearly (A0ll’ e0gw_ peira/somai safe/steron fra/sai). We speak of being carried and of carrying (le/gome/n ti fero/menon kai\ fe/ron), of being led and of leading (kai\ a0go/menon kai\ a1gon), of being seen and of seeing (kai\ o9rw&menon kai\ o9rw~n); and you understand – do you not? – that in all such expressions the two parts differ one from the other in meaning (kai\ pa/nta ta\ toiau=ta manqa/neij o3ti e3tera a0llh/lwn e0sti/), and how they differ (kai\ h[| e3tera)?

Euthyphro: I think I understand (E!gwge/ moi dokw~ manqa/nein).

Socrates: Then, too, we conceive of a thing being loved and of a thing loving, and the two are different (Ou0kou=n kai\ filou/meno/n ti/ e0stin kai\ tou/tou e3teron to\ filou=n;)?

Euthyphro: Of course (Pw~j ga\r ou1;).