Meno 15

Socrates: Then you do not think the sophists are teachers of virtue (Ou0d’ a1ra soi\ dokou=sin oi9 sofistai\ dida/skaloi ei]nai;)?

Meno: I cannot say, Socrates. I am in the same plight as the rest of the world: sometimes I think that they are, sometimes that they are not (Ou0k e1xw le/gein, w} Sw&kratej, kai\ ga\r au0to\j o3per oi9 polloi\ pe/ponqa, tote\ me/n moi dokou=si, tote\ de\ ou1).

Socrates: And are you aware (Oi]sqa de/) that not only you (o3ti ou0 mo/non soi/ te) and other political folk (kai\ a1lloij toi=j politikoi=j) are in two minds as to whether virtue is to be taught (tou=to dokei= tote\ me\n ei]nai didakto/n, to/te d’ ou1), but Theognis the poet also says, you remember, the very same thing (a0lla\ kai\ Qe/ognin to\n poihth\n oi]sq’ o3ti tau0ta\ tau=ta le/gei;)?

Meno: In which part of his poems (E0n poi/oij e1pesin;)?

Socrates: In those elegiac lines where he says (E0n toi=j e0legei/oij, ou[ le/gei)–

“Eat and drink with these men; sit with them, and be pleasing unto them, who wield great power; for from the good wilt thou win thee lessons in the good; but mingle with the bad, and thou wilt lose even the sense that thou hast.”

kai\ para\ toi=sin pi=ne kai\ e1sqie, kai\ meta\ toi=sin

i3ze, kai\ a3ndane toi=j, w{n mega/lh du/namij.

e0sqlw~n me\n ga\r a1p’ e1sqla dida/ceai ׄ h2n de\ kakoi=sin

summi/sgh|j, a0polei=j kai\ to\n e0o/nta no/on.

oi]sq’ o1ti e0n tou/toij me\n w(j didaktou= ou1shj th=j a9reth=j le/gei;

Meno: He does, evidently (Fai/netai/ ge).

Socrates: But in some other lines he shifts his ground a little, saying –

“Could understanding be created and put into a man”

{I think it runs thus} “many high rewards would they obtain” {that is, the men who were able to do such a thing}: and again –

“Never would a bad son have sprung from a good father,

for he would have followed the precepts of wisdom: but not

by teaching wilt thou ever make the bad man good.”

You notice how in the second passage he contradicts himself on the same point?

E0n a1lloij de/ ge oli/gon metaba/j,

Ei0 d’ h]n poihto/n, fhsi/, kai\ e1nqeton a0ndri\ no/hma,

le/gei pwj o3ti

pollou\j a2n misqou\j kai\ mega/louj e1feron

oi9 duna/menoi tou=to poiei=n, kai\

ou1 pot’ a2n e0c a0gaqou= patro\j e1gento kako/j,

peiqo/menoj mu/qoisi sao/frosin. a0lla\ dida/skwn                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ou1 pote poih/seij to\n kako\n a1ndr’ a0gaqo/n.

e0nnoei=j o3ti au0to\j au9tw~| peri\ tw~n au0tw~n ta0nanti/a le/gei;

Meno: Apparently (Fai/netai).

Socrates: Well, can you name any other subject (E!xeij ou]n ei0pei=n a1llou o9touou=n pra/gmatoj) in which the professing teachers (ou3 oi9 me\n fa/skontej dida/skaloi ei]nai) are not only refused recognition as teachers of others (ou0x o3pwj a1llwn dida/skaloi o9mologou=ntai), but regarded as not understanding it themselves (a0ll’ ou0de\ au0toi\ e0pi/stasqai), and indeed as inferior in the very quality of which they claim to be teachers (a0lla\ ponhroi\ ei]nai peri\ au0to\ tou=to to\ pra=gma ou[ fasi\ dida/skaloi ei]nai); while those who are themselves recognised as men of worth and honour (oi9 de\ o9mologou/menoi  au0toi\ kaloi\ ka0gaqoi/) say at one time that it is teachable (tote\ me/n fasin au0to\ didakto\n ei]nai), and at another that it is not (to/te de\ ou1;)? When people are so confused about this or that matter (tou\j ou]n ou3tw tetaragme/nouj peri\ o9touou=n), can you say they are teachers in any proper sense of the word (fai/hj a2n su\ kuri/wj didaska/louj ei]nai;)?

Meno: No, indeed, I cannot (Ma\ Di/’ ou0k e1gwge).

Socrates: Well (Ou0kou=n), if neither the sophists (ei0 mh/te oi9 sofistai/) nor the men who are themselves good and honourable (mh/te oi9 au0toi\ kaloi\ ka0gaqoi\ o1ntej) are teachers of the subject (dida/skaloi/ ei0si tou= pra/gmatoj), clearly no others can be (dh=lon o3ti ou0k a2n a1lloi ge;)?

Meno: I agree (Ou1 moi dokei=).

Socrates: And if there are no teachers (Ei0 de/ ge mh\ dida/skaloi), there can be no disciples either (ou0de\ maqhtai/;)?

Meno: I think that statement is true (Dokei= moi e1xein w(j le/geij).

Socrates: And we have admitted (W(mologh/kamen de/ ge) that a thing of which there are neither teachers nor disciples (pra/gmatoj ou[ mh/te dida/skaloi mh/te maqhtai\ ei]en) cannot be taught (tou=to mhde\ didakto\n ei]nai)?

Meno: We have (W(mologh/kamen).

Socrates: So nowhere are any teachers of virtue to be found (Ou0kou=n a1reth=j ou0damou= fai/nontai dida/skaloi;)?

Meno: That is so (E!sti tau=ta).

Socrates: And if no teachers (Ei0 de/ ge mh\ dida/skaloi), then no disciples (ou0de\ maqhtai/;)?

Meno: So it appears (Fai/netai ou3tw).

Socrates: Hence virtue cannot be taught (A0reth\ a1ra ou0k a2n ei1h didakto/n;)?

Meno: It seems likely (Ou0k e1oiken), if our investigation is correct (ei1per o0rqw~j h9mei=j e0ske/mmeqa). And that makes me wonder, I must say (w#ste kai\ qauma/zw dh/), Socrates (w} Sw&kratej), whether perhaps there are no good men at all (po/tero/n pote ou0d’ ei0si\n a0gaqoi\ a1ndrej), or by what possible sort of process good people can come to exist (h2 ti/j a2n ei1h tro/poj th=j gene/sewj tw~n a0gaqw~n genome/nwn;)?