Meno 12

In Meno 11 Socrates’ questioning of Anytus culminated in Anytus’ defamation of sophists as corruptors of those they get into their hands, upon which Socrates remarked: ‘You are a wizard, perhaps, Anytus; for I really cannot see, from what you say yourself, how else you can know anything about them.’ (92c6-7)

Let Meno 12 begin with Socrates’ words that immediately follow.

Socrates:  But we are not inquiring now who the teachers are (a0lla\ ga\r mh\ ou0 tou/touj e0pizhtou=men ti/nej ei0si) whose lessons would make Meno wicked (pa\r’ ou4j a2n Me/nwn a0fiko/menoj moxqhro\j ge/noito); let us grant, if you will, that they are the sophists (ou[toi men ga\r, ei0 bou/lei, e1stwn oi9 sofistai/): I only ask you to tell us (a0lla\ dh\ e0kei/nouj ei0pe\ h9mi=n), and do Meno a service as a friend of your family by letting him know (kai\ to\n patriko\n to/nde e9tai=ron eu0rge/thson fra/saj au0tw~|), to whom  in all this great city he should apply (para\ ti/naj a0fiko/menoj e0n tosau/th| po/lei) in order to become eminent in the virtue I described just now (th\n a0reth\n h4n nundh\ e0gw_ dih=lqon ge/noit’ a2n a0ci/wj lo/gou).

Anytus: Why not tell him yourself (Ti/ de\ au0tw~| ou0 su\ e1frasaj;)?

Socrates: I did mention to him the men whom I supposed to be teachers of these things (a0ll’ ou4j me\n e0gw_ w@|mhn didaska/louj tou/twn ei]nai, ei]pon); but I find, from what you say, that I am quite off the track (a0lla\ tugxa/nw ou0de\n le/gwn, w(j su\ fh\|j ׄ kai\ i1swj ti\ le/geij). Now you take your turn (a0lla\ su\ dh\ e0n tw~| me/rei), and tell him (au0tw~| ei0pe/) to whom of the Athenians he is to go (para\ ti/naj e1lqh| A0qhnai/wn). Give us a name (ei0pe\ o1noma) – anyone you please (o3tou bou/lei).

Anytus: Why mention a particular one (Ti/ de\ e9no\j a0nqrw&pou o1noma dei= a0kou=sai;)? Any Athenian gentleman he comes across, without exception (o3tw~| ga\r a2n e0ntu/xh| A0qhnai/wn tw~n kalw~n ka0gaqw~n), will do him more good, if he will do as he is bid, than the sophists (ou0dei\j e1stin o4j ou0 belti/w au0to\n poih/sei h2 oi9 sofistai/, e0a/nper e0qe/lh| pei/qesqai).

Socrates: And did those gentlemen grow spontaneously into what they are (Po/teron de\ ou3toi oi9 kaloi\ ka0gaqoi\ a0po\ tou= au0toma/tou e0ge/nonto toiou/toi), and without learning from anybody (par’ ou0deno\j maqo/ntej) are they able, nevertheless, to teach others (o3mwj me/ntoi a1llouj dida/skein oi[oi/ te o1ntej tau=ta) what they did not learn themselves (a3 au0toi\ ou0k e1maqon;)?

Anytus: I expect they must have learnt in their turn from the older generation, who were gentlemen: or does it not seem to you that we have had many good men in this city (Kai\ tou/touj e1gwge a0ciw~ para\ tw~n prote/rwn maqei=n, o1ntwn kalw~n ka0gaqw~n): or does it not seem to you that we have had many good men in this city (h2 ou0 dokousi/ soi polloi\ kai\ a0gaqoi\ gegone/nai e0n th=|de th=| po/lei a1ndrej;)?

Socrates: Yes, I agree, Anytus; we have also many who are good at politics, and have had them in the past as well as now (E!moige, w} A1nute, kai\ ei]nai dokou=sin e0nqa/de a0gaqoi\ ta\ politika/, kai\ gegone/nai e1ti ou0x h3tton h2 ei]nai). But I want to know whether they have proved good teachers besides of their own virtue (a0lla\ mw~n kai\ dida/skaloi a0gaqoi\ gego/nasi th=j au9tw~n a0reth=j;): that is the question with which our discussion is actually concerned (tou=to ga/r e0sti peri\ ou4 o9 lo/goj h9mi=n tugxa/nei w!n); not whether there are, or formerly have been, good man amongst us or not (ou0k ei0 ei0si\n a0gaqoi\ h2 mh\ a1ndrej e0nqa/de, ou0d' ei0 gego/nasin e0n tw~| pro/sqen), but whether virtue is teachable; this has been our problem all the time (a0ll’ ei0 didakto/n e0stin a0reth\ pa/lai skopou=men). And our inquiry into this problem resolves itself into the question (tou=to de\ skopou=ntej to/de skopou=men): Did the good men of our own and of former times know how to transmit to another man the virtue in respect of which they are good (a]ra oi9 a0gaqoi\ a1ndrej kai\ tw~n nu=n kai\ tw~n prote/rwn tau/thn th\n a0reth/n, h4n au0toi\ a0gaqoi\ h]san, h0pi/stanto kai\ a1llw| paradou=nai), or is it something not to be transmitted or taken over from one human being to another (h2 ou0 paradoto\n tou=to a0nqrw&pw| ou0de\ paralhpto\n a1llw| par’ a1llou)? That is the question I and Meno have been discussing all the time (tou=t’ e1stin o4 pa/lai zhtou=men e0gw& te kai\ Me/nwn). Well, just consider it in your way of speaking: would you not say that Themistocles was a good man (w#de ou]n sko/pei e0k tou= sautou= lo/gou ׄ Qe/mistokle/a ou0k a0gaqo\n a2n fai/hj a1ndra gegone/nai;)?

Anytus: I would, particularly so (E!gwge, pa/ntwn ge ma/lista),

Socrates: And if any man ever was a teacher of his own virtue, he especially was a good teacher of his (Ou0kou=n kai\ dida/skalon a0gaqo/n, ei1per tij a1lloj th=j au9tou= a1reth=j dida/skaloj h]n, ka0kei=non ei]nai;)?

Anytus: In my opinion yes (Oi]mai e1gwge), assuming that he wished to be so (ei1per e0bou/leto/ ge).

Socrates: But can you suppose he would not have wished that other people should become good, honourable men (A0ll’, oi]ei, ou0k a2n e0boulh/qh a1llouj te/ tinaj kalou\j ka0gaqou\j gene/sqai) – above all, I presume, his own son (ma/lista de/ pou to\n u9io\n to\n au9tou=)? Or do you think he was jealous of him, and deliberately refused to impart the virtue of his own goodness to him (h2 oi1ei au0to\n fqonei=n au0tw~| kai\ e0cepi/thdej ou0 paradido/nai th\n a0reth/n, h4n au0to\j a0gaqo\j h]n;)? Have you never heard how Themistocles had his son Cleophantus taught to be a good horseman (h2 ou0k a0kh/koaj, o3ti Qemistoklh=j Kleo/fanton to\n ui9o\n i9ppe/a me\n e0dida/cato a0gaqo/n;)? Why, he could keep his balance standing upright on horseback (e0pe/mene gou=n e0pi\ tw~n i3ppwn o0rqo\j e9sthkw&j), and hurl the javelin while so standing (kai\ h0ko/ntizen a0po\ tw~n i3ppwn o0rqo/j), and perform many other wonderful feats (kai\ a1lla polla\ kai\ qaumasta\ ei0rga/zeto) in which his father had had him trained, so as to make him skilled in all that could be learnt from good masters (a4 e0kei=noj au0to\n e0paideu/sato kai\ e0poi/hse sofo/n, o3sa didaska/lwn a0gaqw~n ei1xeto). Surely you must have heard all this from your elders (h2 tau=ta ou0k a0kh/koaj tw~n presbute/rwn;)?

Anytus: I have (A0kh/koa).

Socrates: Then there could be no complaints of badness in his son’s nature (Ou0k a2n a1ra th/n ge fu/sin tou= ui9e/oj au0tou= h|0tia/sat’ a1n tij ei]nai kakh/n)?

Anytus: I daresay not (I!swj ou0k a1n).

Socrates: But I ask you (Ti/ de\ to/de;) – did you ever hear anybody, old or young, say that Cleophantus, son of Themistocles, had the same goodness and accomplishments as his father (w(j Kleo/fantoj o9 Qemistokle/ouj a0nh\r a0gaqo\j kai\ sofo\j e0ge/neto a3per o9 path\r au0tou=, h1dh tou= a0kh/koaj h2 newte/rou h2 presbute/rou;)?

Anytus: Certainly not (Ou0 dh=ta)

Socrates: And can we believe that his father chose to train his own son in those feats, and yet make him no better than his neighbours in his own particular accomplishments – if virtue, as alleged, was to be taught (A]r’ ou]n tau=ta me\n ou]n oi0o/meqa bou/lesqai au0to\n to\n au9tou= ui9o\n paideu=sai, h4n de\ au0to\j sofi/an h]n sofo/j, ou0de\n tw~n geito/nwn belti/w poih=sai, ei1per h]n ge didakto\n h9 a0reth/;)?

Anytus: On my word, I think not (I!swj ma\ Di/’ ou1).

Socrates: Well, there you have a fine teacher of virtue who, you admit, was one of the best men of the past times (Ou[toj me\n dh/ soi toiou/toj dida/skaloj a0reth=j, o4n kai\ su\ o9mologei=j e0n toi=j a1riston tw~n prote/rwn ei]nai). Let us take another (a1llon de\ dh\ skeyw&meqa), Aristeides, son of Lysimachus (A9ristei/dhn to\n Lusima/xou): do you not admit that he was a good man (ׄ h2 tou=ton ou0x o9mologei=j a0gaqo\n gegone/nai;)?

Anytus: I do, absolutely, of course (E!gwge, pa/ntwj dh/pou).

Socrates: Well, did he not train his son Lysimachus better than any other Athenian in all that masters could teach him (Ou0kou=n kai\ ou[toj to\n ui9o\n to\n au9tou= Lusi/maxon, o3sa me\n didaska/lwn ei1xeto, ka/llista A0qhnai/wn e0pai/deusen)? And in the result, do you consider he has turned out better than anyone else (a1ndra de\ belti/w dokei= soi o9touou=n pepoihke/nai;)? You have been in his company, I know (tou/tw| ga/r pou kai\ sugge/gonaj), and you see what he is like (kai\ o9ra|=j oi[o/j e0stin). Or take another example – the splendidly accomplished Pericles (ei0 de\ bou/lei Perikle/a, ou3tw| megaloprepw~j sofo\n a1ndra): he, as you are aware, brought up two sons, Paralus and Xanthippus (oi]sq o3ti du/o u9iei=j e1qreye, Pa/ralon kai\ Ca/nqipon;).

Anytus: Yes (E!gwge).

Socrates: And, you know as well as I, he taught them to be the foremost horsemen of Athens and trained them to excel in music and gymnastics and all else that comes under the head of the arts (Tou/touj me/ntoi, w(j oi]sqa kai\ su/, i9ppe/aj me\n e0di/dacen ou0deno\j xei/rouj A0qhnai/wn kai\ mousikh\n kai\ a0gwni/an kai\ ta]lla e0pai/deusen, o3sa te/xnhj e1xetai, ou0deno\j xei/rouj); and with all that, had he no desire to make them good men (a0gaqou\j de\ a1ra a1ndraj ou0k e0bou/leto poih=sai;)? He wished to, I imagine (dokw~ me/n, e0bou/leto), but presumably it is not a thing one can be taught (a0lla\ mh\ ou0k h]n didakto/n). And that you may not suppose it was only a few of the meanest sort of Athenians who failed in this matter (i3na de\ mh\ o0li/gouj oi1h| kai\ tou\j faulota/touj A0qhnai/wn a0duna/touj gegone/nai tou=to to pra/gma), let me remind you that Thucydides also brought up two sons, Melesias and Stephanus (e0nqumh/qhti o3ti Qoukudi/dhj au] du/o ui9ei=j e1qreye, Melhsi/an kai\ Ste/fanon), and that besides giving them a good general education (kai\ tou/touj e0pai/deuse ta/ te a1lla eu]) he made them the best wrestlers in Athens (kai\ e0pa/laisan ka/llista A0qhnai/wn): one he placed with Xanthias (to\n me\n ga\r Canqi/a| e1dwke), and the other with Eudorus (to\n de\ Eudw&rw|) – masters who, I should think, had the name of being the best exponents of the art (ou[toi de/ pou e0do/koun tw~n to/te ka/llista palai/ein). You remember them, do you not (ׄh2 ou0 me/mnhsai;)?

Anytus, Yes (E!gwge), by hearsay (a0koh=|).

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Lamb notes: ‘Thucydides (son of Melesias, and no relation of the historian) was an aristocrat of high principle and conservative views who opposed the plans of Pericles for enriching and adorning Athens.

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Socrates: Well, is it not obvious that this father, would never have spent this money on having his children taught all those things (Ou0kou=n dh=lon o3ti ou[toj ou0k a1n pote, ou[ me\n e1dei dapanw&menon dida/skein, tau=ta me\n e0di/dace tou\j pai=daj tou\j au9tou=), and then would have omitted to teach them at no expense the others that would have made them good men (ou[ de\ ou0de\n e1dei a0nalw&santa a0gaqou\j a1ndraj poih=sai, tau=ta de\ ou0k e0di/dacen), if virtue was to be taught (ei0 didakto\n h]n;)? Will you say that perhaps Thucydides was one of the meaner sort, and had no great number of friends among the Athenians and allies (a0lla\ ga\r i1swj o9 Qoukudi/dhj fau=loj h]n, kai\ ou0k h]san au0tw~| plei=stoi fi/loi A0qhnai/wn kai\ tw~n summa/xwn;)? He, who was of a great house (kai\ oi0ki/aj mega/lhj h]n) and had much influence in our city (kai\ e0du/nato me/ga e0n th=| po/lei) and all over Greece (kai\ e0n toi=j a1lloij E3llhsin), so that if virtue were to be taught (w#ste ei1per h]n tou=to didakto/n) he would have found out the man who was likely to make his sons good (e0ceurei=n a2n o3stij e1mellen au0tou= tou\j ui9ei=j a0gaqou\j poih/sein), whether one of our own people (h2 tw~n e0pixwri/wn tij) or a foreigner (h2 tw~n ce/nwn), were he himself too busy owing to the cares of state (ei0 au0to\j mh\ e0sxo/laze dia\ th\n th=j po/lewj e0pime/leian)! Ah no, my dear Anytus, it looks as though virtue were not a teachable thing (a0lla\ ga/r, w} e9tai=re A1nute, mh\ ou0k h]| didakto\n a0reth/).

Anytus: Socrates (W} Sw&kratej), I consider you are too apt to speak ill of people (r9a|di/wj moi dokei=j kakw~j le/gein a0nqrw&pouj). I, for one, if you will take my advice, would warn you to be careful (e0gw_ me\n ga/r soi sumbouleu/saimi, ei0 e0qe/leij e0moi\ pei/qesqai, eu0labei=sqai): in most cities it is probably easier to do people harm than good (w(j i1swj me\n kai\ e0n a1llh| po/lei r9a|o/n e0sti kakw~j poiei=n a0nqrw&pouj h2 eu]), and particularly in this one (e0n th=||de de\ kai\ pa/nu); I think you know that yourself (oi]mai de\ se\ kai\ au0to\n ei0de/nai).