Anytus in Plato’s Meno

Diogenes Laertius writes in his chapter on Socrates: ‘he would take to task those who thought highly of themselves, proving them to be fools, as to be sure he treated Anytus, according to Plato’s Meno. For Anytus could not endure to be ridiculed by Socrates, and so in the first place stirred up against him Aristophanes and his friends; then afterwards he helped to persuade Meletus to indict him on a charge of impiety and corrupting the youth.’ (II. 38)

Anytus enters the dialog while Socrates answers Meno’s question ‘do you think there are no teachers of virtue?’ Socrates: ‘I must say I have often inquired whether there were any teachers of virtue, but for all my pains I cannot find one. And yet many have shared the search with me, and particularly those persons whom I regard as best qualified for the task. But look, Meno: here, at the very moment when he was wanted, we have Anytus sitting down beside us, to take his share in our quest. And we may well ask his assistance; for our friend Anytus [Anytos hode] is the son of a wise and wealthy father, Anthemion … who gave his son a good upbringing and education, as the Athenian people think, for they choose him for the highest offices.’ (89e-90b)

Anytus takes part in the discussion from 89e to 95a. In his last entry Anytus says: ‘Socrates, I consider you are too apt to speak ill of people. I, for one, if you will take my advice, would warn you to be careful: in most cities it is probably easier to do people harm than good, and particularly in this one; I think you know that yourself.’

W.R.M. Lamb notes: ‘Anytus goes away.’ This is wrong: Anytus refrains from taking part in the discussion but stays with Meno and Socrates to the end of the dialogue, as we can learn from references to him both by Socrates and by Meno. What misguided W.R.M. Lamb at 99b was his translation of Anytos hode as ‘our friend Anytus’. Lamb translates: ‘Themistocles and the rest of them, to whom our friend Anytus was referring a moment ago.’ Lamb speaks here of Anytus as absent, but Anytos hode ‘this here Anytus’ does not allow it: hoi amphi Themistoklea te kai hous arti Anytos hode elege. Similarly, in the last sentence of the dialogue, Lamb’s ‘our friend Anytus’ allows Lamb and the readers of his translation to think of Anytus as absent, which Socrates’ tonde [accusative of hode] Anyton disallows.

Correspondence with Jirsa on the Meno

 22. Aug. 2024

Vážený pane řediteli,

rád bych na Vašem ústavu přednesl přednášku na téma 'Platonův Menon'. Připojuji příspěvek na mém blogu z 20. srpna, který ukazuje, jak se klasičtí filosofové brání diskusi na toto téma.

Doufám, že moji nabídku zvážíte a sdělíte mi své rozhodnutí.

Kdybych to uměl, příspěvek bych Vám poslal v příloze, pořadatelé internetu však zasílání příloh změnili, a o věc jsem se pokoušel marně. Příspěvek následuje:

Plato and the internet conference that did not take place

Jakub Jirsa odpověděl 28 Aug 2024

Vážený pane Tomine,

Díky za Váš dopis.

Za prvé si nejsem jist, zda text Vašeho blogu nějak ukazuje, že se „klasičtí filosofové brání diskusi“ na téma dialogu Menón.

Za druhé, pokud se Váš argument ohledně datace vzniku dialogu opírá o dva body, které v emailu zmiňujete, mám k nim následující dotazy: 

1)      Pasáž z Diogéna Laertského: proč by Platón nemohl sepsat dialog s Anytem kdykoli po soudu a Sókratově smrti, aby – mimo jiné – ukázal, že za soudem byly osobní nevraživosti a typově jaké situace soudu předcházely? Z textu v Životopisech se nedozvíme, že by Platón zachytil reálné setkání, je to nabízeno jako ukázka toho, co má DL na mysli.

2)      Poslední věta v dialogu Menón: opět, proč je nutné předpokládat, že Platón píše před Menónovým mučením a před expedicí? Stejně jako na jiných místech se nabízí, že v celém závěrečném odstavci Platón posluchači/čtenáři sděluje, že kdyby se Menón staral více o sebe sama (o své ctnosti a poznání) a k tomu samému by přesvědčil Anyta – prospěl by Atéňanům: asi nejen tak, že náležitě přesvědčený Anytos by možná nepoňoukal Meléta k žalobě (a Sókratés by dále mohl žít, první „prospěch“ Atéňanům), ale z Menóna i Anyta by se zřejmě stal lepší člověk (další prospěch). 

S díky a s pozdravem,

Jakub Jirsa

I translate. 1. My letter to Jirsa:

‘Dear Director,

I should like to present at your Institute a paper on Plato’s Meno. I am adding the last Article from my blog, published on my blog August 20, which shows that classicists prevent discussion of the dating of the Meno on the internet. I hope that you will consider my offer and inform me of your decision.’

Jakub Jirsa, the Director of the Philosophy Institute at the Faculty of Philosophy at Charles University in Prague, replied on 28 Aug 2024:

‘Dear Mr Tomin,

In the first place I am not sure that the text on your blog shows that classicists prevent discussion of the dating of the Meno on the internet.’

[Jirsa’s opening sentence can be seen as a good example of such prevention. I presented Jirsa with an offer of a paper on the Meno, he responded with a reference to an article on my blog.

Since Jirsa opened the question of the article on my blog, which I presented to him as an example of the way in which classicists prevent discussion of the dating of the Meno on the internet, let me elucidate it. When I informed John Doherty about the misinformation concerning Plato on the internet, he was delighted and immediately invited me to a discussion of this matter: ‘Hey Julius, John from EditorNinja here! Just saw your booking and really looking forward to our call. It's scheduled for 30 minutes.’ John Doherty informed me about a guest he invited to the discussion, Robert Gotshall, who self-identifies himself as follows: ‘I am an actor, copy editor, and educator with a strong background in the classics.’ I looked forward to the discussion, only to be disappointed at the last moment. Obviously, John Doherty contacted the classicists and was told: ‘The dating of the Meno cannot be discussed.’]

But back to Jirsa’s letter. Jirsa writes: ‘In so far as your argument concerning the dating of the Meno relies on two points, which you mention in your email, I have two questions concerning them:

1)      The passage from Diogenes Laertius: Why could not Plato write the dialog with Anytus at any time after the death of Socrates, in order to show, among other things, that at the background of the trial was personal grudge and malice and what situations preceded the trial? From the text in the ‘Lives’ we do not learn that Platon reported on a real meeting; it is offered as an example of what Diog. Laert. thinks.’

Let me quote the passage: ‘Socrates would take to task those who thought highly of themselves, proving them to be fools, as to be sure he treated Anytus, according to Plato’s Meno. For Anytus could not endure to be ridiculed by Socrates, and so in the first place stirred up against him Aristophanes and his friends; then afterwards he helped to persuade Meletus to indict him on a charge of impiety and corrupting the youth.’

May I ask Jirsa what in the passage in Diogenes’ ‘Life of Socrates’ can be viewed ‘as an example of what Diog. Laert. thinks?’ Is it ‘that at the background of the trial was personal grudge and malice and what situations preceded the trial’?

Plato’s Apology of Socrates is full of Socrates’ references to Anytus’ ‘grudge and malice’ directed against Socrates, beginning with the opening passage, in which he says that his accusers ‘have said little or nothing true’ about him. Let me quote what Socrates said after Meletus proposed his death sentence: ‘so far as Meletus is concerned, I have even now been acquitted, and not merely acquitted, but anyone can see that, if Anytus and Lycon had not come forward to accuse me, he would have been fined a thousand drachmas for not receiving a fifth part of the votes.’ (36a) But in detecting ‘grudge and malice’ at the background of the trial, Socrates in his ‘Defence speech’ goes beyond Anytus and Lycon: ‘Great hatred has arisen against me in the minds of many persons. And this it is which will cause my condemnation, not Meletus or Anytus, but the prejudice and dislike of the many.’ (28a)

Let me now turn to Jirsa’s second point:

2)      ‘The last sentence in the Meno: again, why must one presuppose that Plato writes prior to Meno’s torture, and prior to the expedition? As in other places, so in the last paragraph in the Meno Plato tells his audience, his reader, that if Meno took greater care of himself (of his virtues and of his learning} and would persuade Anytus of the same, he would benefit the Athenians; for a properly persuaded Anytus would perhaps refrain from prompting Meletus to indict Socrates (so that Socrates might live, the first benefit for the Athenians), but both Meletus and Anytus would become better men (a further benefit).’

To begin with, let me quote the last sentence: ‘It is now time for me to go my way, but do you persuade our friend Anytus of that whereof you are now yourself persuaded, so as to put him in a gentler mood; for if you can persuade him, you will do a good turn to the people of Athens also.’

Plato does not tell us what it is, of which ‘Meno himself is now persuaded’, but he undoubtedly presupposes that we will find ourselves. On getting this right our understanding of the Meno depends; to do so, we must grasp the main line of the discussion.

The Meno begins with Meno addressing Socrates: ‘Can you tell me, Socrates, whether virtue can be taught, or is acquired by practice, not teaching? Or if neither by practice nor by learning, whether it comes to mankind by nature or in some other way?’

Of all these questions, it is the question whether virtue can be taught, which is in the centre of attention. As the discussion progresses, it is the political virtue on which the discussion becomes focussed; political virtue, properly understood, embraces the whole virtue, virtue in its totality.

Virtue can be taught if it is knowledge, if it is wisdom. But if it is knowledge, there must be those who teach it and those who are learning it. The question is, are there any teachers of virtue? For if there are no teachers of virtue, then we must conclude that it is not knowledge.

Plato and Socrates see a fundamental difference between ‘political virtue’ as it was exercised by such statesmen as Thucydides, Aristeides, and Pericles, who were unable to pass their political skills to their progeny, and political virtue that could be taught. Socrates does not give any example of political virtue which can be and is taught, but he makes the difference between the two clear in Socrates’ final exposition: ‘If through all this discussion our queries and statements have been correct, virtue is found to be neither natural nor taught, but it is imparted to us by a divine dispensation without understanding in those who receive it, unless there should be somebody among the statesmen capable of making a statesman of another. And if there should be any such, he might fairly be said to be among the living what Homer says Teiresias was among the dead – “He alone has comprehension; the rest are flitting shades. In the same way he on earth, in respect of virtue, will be a real substance among shadows.’ To this Meno replies: ‘I think you put it excellently, Socrates.’

These are Meno’s last words. In the Meno, Meno undergoes a profound development, within the framework of which he is on the way of becoming a true statesman. With his enthusiastic ‘I think you put it excellently, Socrates’ Meno begins to view Plato and Socrates, and himself, as ‘a real substance among shadows.’

But after leaving Athens and returning to Thessaly, instead of making his best to become a prominent statesman within his native country, among his fellow aristocrats, Meno becomes a general of the Thessalian mercenaries in the army of Cyrus. The Meno could not have been written after this happened.

 

 

The unwelcome insertion of the “Draft”

 

In my preceding article I report on my correspondence with Dr Jirsa, the Director of the Institute for Philosophy and Religion. When I posted the article on my blog, an unwelcome insertion appeared in the title: “Draft”

The insertion is well calculated; I posted the article on August 31, three weeks ago, and until now not a single view of this article has been recorded on my blog. This contrasts sharply with the preceding article ‘Plato and the internet conference that did not take place’ which registers a number of viewers.

Let me repeat, “Draft” is an unwelcome insertion

The ‘Correspondence with Jirsa on the Meno’ is definitive. In it I describe my offer of a paper on Plato’s Meno to Dr Jirsa and present his response to my offer, which I elucidate in my comments.

I’m convinced that anybody interested in Plato will find the article worth their while.

Plato and the internet conference that did not take place

 

On August 16 I received an email from John Doherty informing me about the Helpful Content Update (HCU), i.e. the efforts of the internet providers to weed out irrelevant pages ‘ranking in Google’, and to correct what needs correcting. I was particularly interested in the closing passage:

‘As always, if you're investing in content and want help making it better (or just making it at all), we'd love to chat with you at EditorNinja.’

I wrote to John Doherty:

‘I googled Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, which I wanted to view. I received a number of offers, in the first place  ITVX Free of charge.  I am 85, live on Pension Credit, and so I welcomed the ITVX offer. I clicked on Watch now Free of charge, but instead of the movie I expected, I was introduced to a tedious process of opening an account with ITVX. Resigned to this ITVX understanding of 'Free of charge', I followed the necessary steps, hoping that in the end I should be able to watch the movie. Instead, I was presented with an offer of movies which I was not interested in, but I could not find a way to opening 'Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets'.

The ITVX ‘offer’ can be seen as a sad joke. But when all those, who turn to the internet to get information on Plato, are misled and misinformed, this is no laughing matter.

When you google on Plato, you are offered ‘Platonic Chronology and Writings’. When you open it, you are offered a table, which tells you, that Plato began to write his dialogues after Socrates died.

And yet, the Meno was written – provably – several years prior to Socrates’ trial and death.’

In response, John Doherty offered me an internet meeting. The meeting was to take place on August 19, 2’30 pm to 3 pm. But at 2 pm, just as I opened the computer in preparation for the meeting, I found in my Inbox an email in which John Doherty wrote ‘I’m not quite sure what this has to do with my business? Can you please help me understand?’

I replied:

“A substantial Russian article on Plato on the internet quotes in its opening section the remark of Whitehead, British mathematician, logician, and philosopher: 'The European philosophy is best characterized as a series of remarks on Plato.'

All Plato's dialogues have been preserved; for centuries, prior to the press, they were copied and recopied by lovers of his works. This cannot be said of his predecessors and contemporaries.

People turn to Internet for information on Plato - and, as I have pointed out, they are misinformed: they learn that Plato wrote his dialogues after Socrates died, while it can be proved that Plato wrote the Meno prior to Socrates' trial and death: 

1. Diogenes Laertius writes in his 'Life of Socrates': Socrates 'would take to task those who thought highly of themselves, proving them to be fools, as to be sure he treated Anytus, according to Plato's Meno. For Anytus could not endure to be ridiculed by Socrates, and so in the first place stirred up against him Aristophanes and his friends; then afterwards he helped to persuade Meletus to indict him on a charge of impiety and corrupting the youth.' 

Anytus must have done this after the Meno had been circulated, and prior to Socrates' trial.

2. Xenophon writes in the Anabasis: 'the facts which everybody knows are the following: Meno was not, like Clearchus and the rest of the generals, beheaded - a manner of death which is counted speediest - but was tortured to death alive for a year and so met the death of a scoundrel.'

In his 'Life of Xenophon' Diogenes says: 'Xenophon took part in the expedition of Cyrus in the year before the death of Socrates.'

Socrates closes the Meno with the words: 'It is now time for me to go my way, but do you persuade Anytus of that of which you are now yourself persuaded, so as to put him in a gentler mood; for if you can persuade him, you will do a good turn to the people of Athens also.’

The question is, how could Plato write the Meno after all that Xenophon says about him in the Anabasis became generally known?”

Let me note that the facts about Meno, to which Xenophon points, must have been known in Greek territories long before Xenophon wrote the Anabasis.

John Doherty replied: ‘Thanks for the message. Unfortunately, I'm still confused as to why you're sending all of this to me. Are you writing a book or something, or was there something I or someone I know published that was incorrect?’

I replied: ‘In answer to your query, let me quote your own words:

“As always, if you're investing in content and want help making it better (or just making it at all), we'd love to chat with you at EditorNinja.”

 

 

 

ITVX

 I wrote to ITVX:

‘Dear ITVX,

I wanted to view 'Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets'. I googled it, got 'ITVX Free of Charge',

clicked on 'Watch', but instead of the movie I expected I was introduced to a tedious process of opening an account with ITVX. Resigned to this ITVX understanding of 'Free', I followed the necessary steps, hoping that in the end I should be able to watch the movie. Instead, I was presented with an offer of movies which I was not interested in, but I could not find a way to opening 'Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets'.

I am 85, if you can help an old man, please do. I would gladly see all Harry Potter films. So if you can open for me 'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone', to begin with, please do. If you can't do so, please, cancel my subscription.

With the best wishes,

Dr Julius Tomin’

In response I received the following:

‘Message not delivered

Your message couldn't be delivered to ITVX@account.itv.com because the remote server is misconfigured. See the technical details below for more information.’ When I clicked on ‘the technical details’ I received the following: ‘The response from the remote server was: 550 5.7.1 relaying denied’

Plato: Meno – Internet Encyclopaedia of Philosophy - 3

 Rawson writes: 'In this dialogue, Plato imagines Meno encountering Socrates shortly before that disastrous Persian adventure, when he has not yet proved himself to be the “scoundrel” and “tyrant” that Socrates suspects and Xenophon later confirms. According to Xenophon, when Cyrus was killed and his other commanders were quickly beheaded by the King’s men, Meno was separated and tortured at length before being killed, because of his special treachery (see Xenophon’s Anabasis II, 6)'

But this cannot be right. Meno did not betray the Persians, he betrayed the Greeks, notably Clearchus, the unelected but deeply respected leader of the Greek mercenaries, and the other generals who went with him to the tent of Tissaphernes, the leader of the Persians. And the Persians appreciated it, delighted in it, and presented it to the Greeks in the best possible light.

Xenophon writes that after the generals had been seized in the tent of Tissaphernes and the captains butchered in front of it 'some of the barbarian horsemen rode about over the plain and killed every Greek they met, whether slave or free man. And the Greeks wondered at this riding about, as they saw it from their camp, and were puzzled to know what the horsemen were doing, until Nicarchus the Arcadian reached the camp in flight, wounded in his belly and holding his bowels in his hand, and told all that has happened. Thereupon the Greeks, one and all, ran to their arms, panic-stricken and believing that the enemy would come at once against the camp.' (Anabasis II, v, 32-34)

But not all of the Persians came, only their messengers. 'As soon as they came near, they directed whatever Greek general or captain there might be to come forward, in order that they might deliver the message from the King. After this two generals went from the Greek lines and with them Xenophon the Athenian, who wished to know the fate of Proxenus. And when the Greeks got within hearing distance, Ariaeus said: "Clearchus, men of Greece, inasmuch as he was shown to be perjuring himself and violating the truce, had received his deserts and is dead, but Proxenus and Menon, because they gave information about his plotting, are held in high honour. For yourselves, the king demands his arms; for he says they belong to him, since they belonged to Cyrus, his slave." To this the Greeks replied as follows, Cleanor the Orchomenian acting as spokesman: "Ariaeus, you basest of men, and all you others who were friends of Cyrus, are you not ashamed, either before gods or men, that, after giving us your oaths to count the same people friends and foes as we did, you have betrayed us, joining hands with Tissaphernes, the most godless and villainous man, and that you have not only destroyed the very men to whom you were then giving oath, but have betrayed the rest of us and are come with our enemies against us?" And Ariaeus said: "But it was shown long ago Clearchus was plotting against Tissaphernes and Orontas and all of us who were with them." Upon this Xenophon spoke as follows: "Well, then, if Clearchus was really transgressing the truce in violation of his oaths, he has his deserts, for it is right that perjurers should perish; but as to Proxenus and Meno, since they are your benefactors and our generals, send them hither, for it is clear that, being friends of both parties, they will endeavour to give both you and ourselves the best advice." To this the barbarians made no answer, but, after talking for a long time with one another, they departed.' (Anabasis II, v, 32-34)

Let me end this piece by pointing to the significance of all these events concerning the dating of the Meno.

But first, some more of Diogenes Laertius. In his 'Life of Xenophon' he says that Xenophon 'took part in the expedition of Cyrus in the archonship of Xenaenetus in the year before the death of Socrates.' (II 55)

This means that the whole of Greece knew about Meno's heinous betrayal before the death of Socrates. And so I must ask, how could Plato write the Meno after the death of Socrates?

More problems with Plato’s Meno

 

I wrote ‘Plato: Meno – Internet Encyclopaedia of Philosophy – 3’, printed it, and then went to the kitchen to make myself some tea. Then I returned to my desk, wanted to copy the text, and put it on my blog. But it turned into a ‘view only’ format; it cannot be copied.

PS

This time my 'More problems with Plato's Meno' had no effect. And so I rewrote the article directly on the blog,